The arts are so often seen as a ‘nice to have’ rather than something essential and valuable - what do you think is the biggest misconception about creative work/what it takes to be an artist?

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It’s only an assumption, of course, but I think some people think that art should be fun, entertaining more than a ‘serious’ business. However, even if one goes to a musical for entertainment, one cannot but realise how sophisticated and difficult the production of such musical must be.

I think it does help, as a starting point for discussion, that classical music enjoys an image of high quality and excellence - although of course, it doesn’t always live up to its reputation. 

Something I do encounter a lot with people from the business world is that they assume leading orchestras is easy in the sense that everyone on stage - the players, mainly - wants to be there; the musicians love what they do. 

They’re often surprised when I tell them that, in terms of professions with a high risk of burnout and depression, being an orchestral musician is one of the worst in the world. I think the only one that falls below it is prison wardens. 

How could that be? Imagine - you are a talented young musician, getting compliments and appreciation for your artistic solo-playing everywhere you go. By the age of, say 20 you're maybe the youngest member of an illustrious body like the London Symphony Orchestra. 

So you find yourself as violin number 16 out of 20 in the second violin section. Now, where is your highly individual artistic personality? Where is the expression of your unique talent? Where is your creative vision? Most of the time you must play a repertoire that you don't choose. Every detail of interpretation is decided by the conductor - and if they bring in a bad conductor, he or she might kill the music completely. The scope of choice and the control you have is extremely limited.  Small wonder you burnout, or just sit there grumpy and passive!

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You’ve had a fascinating career path. What was the journey that led to you expanding your work from conducting into writing, speaking and leadership?

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I was fairly young at the time, conducting my own orchestra and fighting with the authorities to get meagre financial support and my salary included. 

I received a request from a large bank in Israel, asking me to speak to the management team. They said to me, ‘these people you will be talking to, they know nothing about classical music; they’re not interested.’

I needed to come up with a different angle in order to catch their attention. I looked through my very small  video cassette collection (that was the technology!) and I pulled out these six beautiful conducting moments that I loved, and seemed relevant to managers. I was, I'm now ashamed to admit, very skeptical about bridging the ‘spritual’ gap between art and money-making. It also didn't help that, arriving on my rusty bike I had to go through the parking lot filled with shiny black Mercedes. So you can understand, I was quite full of negativity to start with. 

What changed it all for me was the sudden realisation that I don’t have to speak to them in order to ‘bridge the gap’. Instead, I can simply show them. So I just played the video clips I loved, only hinting to what made it relatable to their industry. They, of course, knew a lot about leadership and management - definitely much more than I did. They were also older, had a lot of experience, so they could easily relate to the moments I was sharing.

To my surprise, I discovered that they dived into exploring what they saw, and then the gap between our different professional ‘languages’ - so we had a conversation that was as interesting and as rewarding for me as it was for them. I enjoyed it so much!

When you make a big change in life, there’s always something that pushes you out and something that holds you back; this push/pull between the new horizon and the old horizon. 

Being a conductor, you are almost always ‘swimming upstream’ - there is so much resistance!. I’m glad I could do it, but I'm also glad I could let go of that burden, and direct my “Maestro” skills to that new type of encounters, where music is not the ‘daily bread’, and people are grateful for having it introduced to them from an unexpected perspective.

Being true to myself, I realise that these learning experiences - teaching and learning being the same thing - are so much more rewarding for me. I had to give something up to get here, but I gained something else. 

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What are the benefits of stepping away from a non-linear career path in this way?

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Being a leader doesn't necessarily make you happy! Look at that hilarious, yet serious, book by Laurence J. Peter:

The "Peter Principle" is a theory stating that in a hierarchical organization, employees are promoted based on their success in previous roles until they reach a position where they are no longer competent, effectively becoming "stuck" at their level of incompetence. 

Someone could be a fabulous engineer, but you put them at the head of the team and they’re terrible. It’s not what they’re good at. It takes significant strength to be able to say what you want and what you don’t want, or to ask for the organisation to find something else which would be a better fit.

Often it is your body that knows when something isn’t right for you, even when your conscious thinking doesn’t. I got really sick the day I got my first position with an American orchestra. I won an audition and the same night, I went to celebrate with friends in New York and I became very unwell. It comes from doing something against yourself, your body starts to fight it. I wasn't quick to acknowledge it at the time - I had to learn the hard way.

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In your TED talk, Lead like the Great Conductors, you share a fantastic quote from conductor Herbert Von Karajan: “the worst damage I can do to my orchestra is to give them a clear instruction. Because that would prevent the ensemble; the listening to each other that is needed for an orchestra." Do you agree?

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It’s important to remember that everything is context-dependent, especially leadership. The great Karajan had 37 years as music director of the Berlin Philharmonic  to get to that fantastic realization of a ‘culture of listening’. Creating a culture is, for me, the ultimate leadership challenge.

Let me give you an example. I was lucky enough to study with Leonard Bernstein, who was my greatest mentor. I spent some time with him and I was so taken by his approach of completely open dialogue with the musicians.

When I returned to my own orchestra, the Tel Aviv symphony orchestra,  there was a point during rehearsal where something didn't go very well, and I couldn't find a way to make it sound right. So, following the style of Bernstein, I just said to my players: “We're partners in this - perhaps you can tell me what I’m doing wrong. Perhaps the tempo isn’t right? My gesture nor clear?”. 

This brought the whole orchestra to complete silence. They were so surprised, then eventually they looked to the most experienced member of the orchestra to speak and he was very clear. He said “Where we come from (meaning the former USSR), ‘The conductor doesn’t ask people what to do. He knew what to do!”

You see, I forgot that a ‘culture’ was not something you can change instantly. In my desired culture, I was respecting them, treating them as equals to me. By their cultural standards, I was disrespectful. In their view, if you have to consult with somebody, that means you don't know. So that was a complete disaster. 

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When it comes to the business world, do you think this more collaborative approach makes someone a better leader?

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I think this should be part of what a true leader is able to do. But you certainly don’t have to be confined to a single behavior. To return to the TED talk - I refer to a range of conducting styles, all generating great results.  The advantage of some styles is that they allow for a wider spectrum of behaviour, without losing tour authenticity and trust: Bernstein, with that style of open dialogue and collaboration, can also, when needed, generate what I call ‘Muti moments’: Taking control and even disciplinary actions. The reverse wouldn’t work: Muti’s “command and control’ style prevents the space needed for collaborative creation. 

Empathy and vulnerability are so important in human relationships, especially for  leadership, and I know they are often lacking. How to ‘teach’ that to leaders? The only way is to experience empathy. It always gives me joy when I feel that high level of empathy between myself and the audience - I know it works both ways, and, without even mentioning the word ‘empathy’, important learning was achieved.

It’s easy to talk about empathy, about dialogue, about vulnerability - but you have to also make your people experience these qualities.

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What lessons do you think business leaders can learn from the arts?

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Again, I think one doesn't learn by listening to someone of authority speaking things. You learn by being with these things; by being present in the moment. This is what I think some leaders find hard to achieve: to be. Art can teach you that: when you experience a Vermeer painting in the museum, or walk into a cathedral when the great organ is playing some divine music, this is something that happens to you. It’s here, you are here - in the moment.

I think people are inviting me to their business not only for a fresh musical metaphor to illuminate their practices. What people want, most of all, is to actually be there, in that moment. They want to feel empathy, to have their voice acknowledged as part of ‘the music’ of a dialogue; to be open and vulnerable. They want to experience. 

That is my challenge, and my promise.

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