The arts are so often seen as a ‘nice to have’ rather than something essential and valuable - what do you think is the biggest misconception about creative work/what it takes to be an artist?

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It’s only an assumption, of course, but I think some people think that art is some kind of an extension of what we all did when we were young. It’s seen as fun; maybe not that serious. 

I’m lucky in that this attitude isn’t something I’ve come across often in my career. I think it does help that classical music has this image of quality and excellence - although of course, it doesn’t always live up to its reputation. 

Something I do encounter a lot with people from the business world is that they assume my job is easy because everyone wants to be there; the musicians love what they do. 

They’re often surprised when I tell them that, in terms of professions with a high risk of burnout and depression, being an orchestral musician is one of the worst in the world. I think the only one that falls below it is prison wardens. 

Imagine - you are a talented young musician, you get compliments and appreciation everywhere you go. By the age of, say 20 you're maybe the youngest member of an illustrious body like the London Symphony Orchestra. 

You find yourself as violin number 16 out of 20 in the second violin section. Where is your personality? Where is your unique talent? Where is your vision? Most of the time you must play a repertoire that you don't choose. Everything is dependent on the conductor - if they bring in a bad conductor, he or she might kill the music completely. The scope of choice and the control you have is extremely limited. 

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You’ve had a fascinating career path. What was the journey that led to you expanding your work from conducting into writing, speaking and leadership?

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I was fairly young at the time, conducting my orchestra and fighting with the authorities to get meagre financial support and my salary included. 

I received a request from a large bank in Israel, asking me to speak to the management team. They said to me, ‘these people you will be talking to, they know nothing about classical music; they’re not interested.’

I needed to come up with something else I could talk about. I looked through a video cassette at the library and I pulled out these six beautiful moments that I could talk about. I arrived on my rusty bike and I had to go through the parking lot filled with shiny black Mercedes. So you can understand, I was quite full of negativity to start with. 

What changed it all for me was the realisation that I don’t have to speak to them. I can show them. So I just showed them what I loved and made it relatable [to their industry]. They knew about leadership, management - definitely much more than I did. They were also much older, they had a lot of experience, so they could relate to the experiences I spoke about. 

I discovered that we could explore the gap in our experiences. We could make it into a conversation. And we had a conversation that was, for me, as interesting and as rewarding as it was for them. 

When you make a big change in life, there’s always something that pushes you out and something that holds you back; this push/pull between the new horizon and the old horizon. 

Being a conductor, you are always swimming upstream. I’m glad I could do it, but also I'm also glad I could tell myself honestly, you're already Maestro, they'll keep calling you that. It's a good thing, like being an ambassador or President. That is important, because people do look at titles. 

But if I'm true to myself, this learning experience - teaching and learning being the same thing - is so much more rewarding for me. I had to give something up to get here, but I gained something else. 

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What are the benefits of stepping away from a non-linear career path in this way?

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Being a leader doesn't necessarily make you happy.

Parkinson's Law, named after the British professor Northcote Parkinson states that ‘work will expand to fill the time allotted for its completion.’ In the same way, people will go up the ladder until they reach their level of inefficiency. Essentially, everyone ends up stuck where they shouldn't be. 

Someone could be a fabulous engineer, but you put them at the head of the team and they’re terrible. It’s not what they’re good at. It takes significant strength to be able to say what you want and what you don’t want, or to ask for the organisation to find something else which would be a better fit.

Often your body knows when something isn’t right for you. I got really sick the day I got my first position with an American orchestra. I won an audition and the same night, I went to celebrate with friends in New York and I became very unwell. It comes from doing something against yourself, your body starts to fight it. I wasn't quick to acknowledge it at the time - I had to learn the hard way.

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In your TED talk, Lead like the Great Conductors, you share a fantastic quote from conductor Herbert Von Karajan: “the worst damage I can do to my orchestra is to give them a clear instruction. Because that would prevent the ensemble; the listening to each other that is needed for an orchestra." Do you agree?

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It’s important to remember that everything is context-dependent. Leadership is always context-dependent. The fact that Beethoven’s fifth is played in orchestras all over the world, across different eras… it’s the same music, but each time it's done in a completely different social and political context.

Let me give you an example. I was lucky enough to study with Leonard Bernstein, who was my greatest mentor. I spent some time with him and I was so taken by his approach of completely open dialogue with the musicians.

When I returned to Israel, I was working with the Tel Aviv symphony and there was a point during rehearsal where something didn't go very well; something wasn’t working. I said to them, we're partners to this, perhaps you can tell me what I’m doing wrong. Perhaps the tempo isn’t right, for example. 

This brought the whole orchestra to complete silence. They were so surprised, then eventually they looked to the most experienced member of the orchestra to speak and he was very clear. He said, ‘The conductor doesn’t ask people what to do. He knows what to do.’

I wanted to respect them, to treat them as equals, and they thought it was disrespectful. In their view, if you have to consult with somebody, that means you don't know. So that was a complete disaster. 

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When it comes to the business world, do you think this more collaborative approach makes someone a better leader?

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I think this should be part of what a true leader is able to do. But you don’t have to only be one thing. To return to the TED talk - I refer to a range of conductors. I always say,  if you're a Bernstein, with that style of open dialogue and collaboration, you don’t have to be just that. You can always have what I call ‘Muti moments’. Muti’s style is solid tutorial; more direct; a great deal of management and control. Different approaches are needed in different situations. 

In terms of empathy and vulnerability, I know they are important in leadership, and I know they are often lacking. [When I speak] I believe in creating a level of empathy with the audience. 

It’s easy to talk about empathy, about dialogue, about vulnerability - but you have to also be these things, to lead through these things.

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What lessons do you think business leaders can learn from the arts?

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In my personal experience, you don’t learn by speaking about things. You learn by being with these things; by being present in the moment. This is what I think many leaders forget. 

When you see something beautiful; when you experience a Vermeil in the museum for example, this is something that happens to you. It’s there. 

I think people are not inviting me to their business to hear something new from me necessarily, but to actually be there, in that moment. They want to feel empathy, to have their voice as part of a dialogue; to be open and vulnerable. They want an experience.